Stogodišnji križarski rat beksajdaša i materijalista

[Koki]

Spominjanje tuninga je deplasirano u ovom slučaju. Oduvijek su igrači htjeli poboljšati perfomanse svog reketa no pitanje je jedino dali je to što čine u granicama regularnosti. U tom smilu danas proizvođači prodaju u startu tvornički tunirane gume koje prolaze testove ispravnosti na natjecanjima. Moje je pitanje koliko bi opisanih "Sokaz" trava prošlo test regularnosti na iole ozbilnijem natjecanju?
Vjeruj mi jako malo. S tim se može igrati samo u Sokazu...

Naravno, nadam se da ovo ne doživljavaš osobno. Ne znam kakva je tvoja trava pa vjerujem da je legalna...

I na kraju o radu. Naravno da je sve u radu i treningu jer će on značiti rezultat. No do rezultata se može i "tamnom" stranom. Ko u zvjezdanim ratovima. Lakše je, brže i zavodljivije...

[Vracko]

Drogi vjeruj mi nije tako kako kazes. Trava je hendikep. Isto tako vrlo je vazan tajming malo zakasnis travas daje losu loptu. Problem u slabijim ligama je sto igraci slabo kuze rotacije. U jacim ligama imas puno manje travasa. Zkj jer je trava hendikep. Napustam raspravu. Moj zakljucak biti dobar travas je puno teze nego sto ti mislis. Uzivaj

[Vracko]

Koki naravno da osobno ne shvacam. Ne brini.

Drogi tjuninf nije dozvoljen samo toliko da znas

[Koki]

Moram se upristojiti kako stvari stoje.
Fala Koki da si stao u obranu onih koji misle da trave uništavaju ovaj prekrasan sport "ubijanjem" igre.

Kad ste čuli da je netko izgovorio:"vidi ovoga ima normalne gume i baš nas je prevario njima."
Za suprotno sam čuo XYZ puta.

I ovo opažanje da publika ne voli čokljavce gledati je istina jer jednostavno nema smisla i nije atraktivno, ali sam zato dosta puta doživio da u dvoranu stignu neki teži rekreativci i kad vide igrače iz prve lige sokaza kako počnu spinat dobre lopte DIVE IM SE. Ne mogu vjerovati što vide, hvataju se za glavu i instant se zaljubljuju u pingač i nadaju se da će i oni to moći uskoro

Mislim da si krivo shvatio moj post. Nemam ništa protiv trave. Imam protiv nekih "trava". Ono što odigrava Joo Seahjuk je vrlo atraktivno. Njegova je lopta ultra rezana zato jer to ima u ruci a ne zato što to guma sama odigra..

[Drogi]

postoje regule gdje guma ne smije ispuštati određenu količinu plinova u datom vremenu, i vjeruj mi moj reket bi prošao test i za olimpijske igre.

Ali baš me zanima jel znaš kakva trava je dozvoljena i koje regule mora proći?

[Vracko]

Vjeruj mi znam jer sam prosao puno vise turnira od tebe. Uostalom igrao sam i na vanjskim turnirima

[Drogi]

Drogi vjeruj mi nije tako kako kazes. Trava je hendikep. Isto tako vrlo je vazan tajming malo zakasnis travas daje losu loptu. Problem u slabijim ligama je sto igraci slabo kuze rotacije. U jacim ligama imas puno manje travasa. Zkj jer je trava hendikep. Napustam raspravu. Moj zakljucak biti dobar travas je puno teze nego sto ti mislis. Uzivaj

Znaš zašto ih je manje, jer svi oni koji su u igri imali problema su stavili travu pa igraju bolje, ali da su igrali dovoljno dobro ne bi ni stavljali travu, i u pravilu velika većina travonja su generalno lošiji igrači pa je logično da ih je manje u kvalitetnijim ligama jer logično opet igrači igraju bolje i ne moraju stavljati trave da prikrivaju svoje slabosti u igri jer vidi čuda igraju dobro.

Naravno s time i dolazi sve ostalo što treba da se i može pobijediti travonja Ali na rekreativnom i početničkom nivou trava je apsolutna prednost u igri bez ikakve potrebe za diskusijom.

I da BTW ako je trava tolki hendikep, pa stavi buraz obične gume i odma budeš bolje igrao jer nebudeš imao hendikep.

[Vracko]

Kada neko uci igrat s travom 5 godina onda nece stavit ciste gume. Jer ne mozemo svi igrati otvorenu i cistu igru

[Drogi]

Vjeruj mi znam jer sam prosao puno vise turnira od tebe. Uostalom igrao sam i na vanjskim turnirima

Prema tome nije tuning zabranjen, zabranjeno je imati gumu koja ispušta previše plinova u datom trenutku, a pošto nemam novaca da svaki dan naljepim nove gume jer bi to bila cca sto eura svaki put kad igram, onda stavim tuning počekam dan dva da otpusti i igram ugodnije sljedećih mjesec dana pa ponovim.

[Drogi]

Kada neko uci igrat s travom 5 godina onda nece stavit ciste gume. Jer ne mozemo svi igrati otvorenu i cistu igru

Da a vidi fore neko 10 godina igra s normalnim gumama dođe do nekog nova i tu stane. Jedan dan stavi travu i za dva mjeseca igra 5 liga jaču igru... baš se pitam zašto?? Kako to ? kako to ?

U svakom slučaju trave su tu i travama se igralo i igrati će se, a na nama je da biramo želimo li rezultat ili igrati dobar pingač.

[Vracko]

S travom se moze igrat lijepi pingic ne brini

[Drogi]

Strašan pingič se može igrati. Samo dvojica u prvoj ligi su dobri i zato jer imaju monstruozne ulaze, svi ostali čokljare na veliko. Moram spat, sutra se radi, javim se sutra ne brini

[Dinko Š.]

Tekst s prethodne, tj. 2. stranice ove (moje) lige:

"Pozdrav, evo i jednog citata (doduše starijeg, iz 2001) sa stranice Tactical Table Tennis pod naslovom “Da li je igranje s travom varanje” (nisam baš jak na prevođenju, bolje da je u originalu):

ARE LONG PIPS CHEATING
Long pips have always been controversial rubbers. This are some of the points made by players that complain on long pips, and my comments on each point:

1- They allow EASY control of spiny balls:
True, but note that EASY control is not BETTER control. Doing high quality shots is much more difficult than with inverted. Inverted players have a wide range of rubbers from where to choose, and they can select one among them that gives all the control they need too. Choosing a rubber that makes you control the ball is not cheating. It is a good idea.

2- They are hard to play against if you don't know HOW they work:
True, but this is YOUR fault only. Imagine how would you complain on inverted if it didn't exist, and you (a hardbat player, which never faced anything other than hardbat) faced a new player from another planet using heavy reglued Mark V rubbers with MAX sponge. If you were facing this player once per year, you would NEVER learn to play against inverted, since you need much more practice to get used to it. If you were AVOIDING this player all the time, the few (unavoidable) times you played against him, your performance would be even poor. That's what happen with long pips.

3- There's great variation on how long pips play, so LEARNING to play against them is not easy:
True. Long pips have a lot of parameters (such as pip's height, width, hardness, density ...) which can be adjusted to get specific (and very distinct) performances to suit different styles. Playing against JOOLA Badman (a hitting rubber) has NOTHING to do with playing against Double Happiness C7 (a chopping rubber). Also, some long pips are spiny while other are dead, some are deceptive while some are not, some can do spin reversal while some eat all spin, and all this types can be combined among them. But what gives more problems to players is that they return spin depending on the incoming ball's spin AND the stroke the long pips player plays. Note that inverted can somehow have great variation too, but when it comes close to some extreme behavior, they call it ANTISPIN.

4- Lots of players use long pips to COVER some weakness:
True. On the other side, lots of players serve & go for 3rd ball kill with ultra-fast equipment that they can't really control. In the first case, it's called CHEATING, and in the late case, it's called EVOLUTION OF THE GAME, but both groups choose equipment with the same purpose: to boost its performance. Both groups are likely to have problems to improve his game. Long pips suit very few players, same as very fast equipment. Those are not the wisest options, but neither can't be called cheating.

5- There are some truly DECEPTIVE rubbers:
True. There are some rubbers that have its parameters adjusted so tricky and extremely that can RANDOMIZE the spin they impart on the ball. This rubbers allow to push a no spin ball and get ANY spin (backspin, topspin, sidespin, even corkscrew). Every push comes different. It's a nightmare when they hit with this rubbers and you are at the other side. BUT this is not the purpose of this rubbers: a (highly) skilled played can play those deceptive long pips in a completely predictable manner. They choose this equipment since it has incredible capabilities (i. e.: instead of reversing spin, they can change spin's direction at his will). There are few legal and deceptive rubbers since the aspect ratio rule.

6- Long pips players take PROFIT of opponents' inability to play against long pips ON PURPOSE:
True. Lots of players use long pips as it's stated in (1), and take profit of (2), (3), (4) and (5) to boost their performance, specially at the lower levels, and SOME do this with the intention of take profit of opponent's weakness against long pips. This is cheating at the same level as doing a certain serve that you know your opponent is weak against (the common accepted 'way to go' by ALL the players). Some players complain that the difference is that serves have to be learned, and long pips just can be purchased. Well using long pips without leaving exposed his inherent weaknesses is very difficult to learn (and it is a must to play a SUCCESSFUL long pips game).

7- You have to THINK when facing long pips players:
Not true.You are not FORCED to think. You can play chess without thinking too. You can play your mindless looping style as usual and still win, but that will be unlikely if your opponent forces you to rally. Lots of players complain 'I don't like to think when I'm playing': That's fine, but they are playing with one important weapon less than a thinking player, and that could make the difference.

8- Inverted can be used to play successful chopping TOO:
True. But long pips are a MUCH better option since they provide better variation, much heavy backspin, and better handling and ball control to play defense. You can loop with 0.5 mm sponge too if you want (no, wait, that would be cheating because it's unusual).

9- Real ATHLETES don't play long pips / defense:
Not true. Some real athletes DO play long pips / defense. Look at the world ranking and you will see some (yes, there are few) real athletes playing long pips /defense.

10- Inverted is SUPERIOR to long pips:
True. That's just accurate. This has NOTHING to do with the fact that long pips are or are not cheating.

11- Returning the ball without taking CHANCES is very easy with long pips:
Not true. Returning the ball can be easy, but it is EXTREMELY difficult doing it in such a manner that your opponent can't attack (don't letting your opponent attack (or at least don't letting him to attack hard) is the ONLY way of play without taking chances). At top level, choppers play the riskiest possible game.

12- Long pips players do NOTHING but wait for opponent's error:
Not true. They have AT LEAST to return ALL the shots. Winning the point by opponent's error (whatever you think it means) is 100% legal, thus is no cheating.

13- Defensive styles at lower levels are much more EFFECTIVE:
True. At lower levels there are lots of unforced errors, so just keeping the ball in play, even poorly, and playing for safety will make you a tough opponent. This has nothing to do with cheating.

14- There are little or no chopper TOP players:
True. This is because they are at a HUGE disadvantage when facing loopers due to 40mm balls, glues, low aspect ratios, max sponges, carbon blades, etc... Still, there are a few players that choose this style and can be competitive. Imagine taking part in an F1 race with a 'street' sports car... and winning: You wouldn't be called cheater: you would be called HERO.

Boris
Copyright © 2001 The Tactical Table Tennis Website"

S obzirom da Drogi i Munja očigledno ne vladaju najbolje s engleskim jezikom, ako me lijepo zamole ja ću im taj tekst prevesti na njima razumljiviji hrvatski jezik.

[Saša]

Majn ingliš iz olzo bed.
Pliz bi najs person end mejk translejšn for mi Dinko

[Drogi]

Cijenjeni kolega Dinko, vidim da vi radite predpostavke bez promišljanja i dajte epitete ljudima bez ikakvih informacija na temu. Hvala Bogu vladam engleskim sasvim pristojno i vjerojatno znatno bolje od vas jer se svakodnevno koristim istim. Također na izjavu da me se terba testirati na drogu i da sam dogovorio rezultati ni netreba komentirati naknadno, ali laganini vas pošaljem "u" "najljepše mjesto na svijetu" da vam bude ugodno, nikako ne želim biti nepristojan više prema vama i nazivati vas podgrdnim imenima jer ste se u njima vi jedini pronašli od svih forumaša. (moram se upristojiti, pa ne želim prostačiti).

Svakako će vam biti lakše kad si priznate, da ako ne igrate s travom bi bili igrač 19. ili 20. lige i to je ok.

Pravdate tu travu kao da ste vi na gubitku jer igrate s njima. Pa evo još jednom pozivam sve travonje da stave normalne gume i za mjesec dva će biti bolji za 50%, svi sretni i zadovoljni. Naravno da nećete biti bolji za 50% nego lošiji za 50%.

[MUNJA2]

Ma daj, 19. i 20. ligu igram ja, bez trave Dinko je u 21. ili 22. ligi !

[Drogi]

Više ga vidim u ženskom dijelu natjecanja

[Dinko Š.]

Dragi kolega Drogi veli da se "mora upristojiti, pa ne želi prostačiti". Baš mi ga je žao što nešto mora, a ne želi (i ne zna, očito) raditi.
Šteta. Jer, kad on ne bi bio tako poslušan, mogao sam od njega saznati koje je to mjesto koje je za njega postalo "najljepše mjesto na svijetu", a na osnovu njegovog iskustva dugotrajnog boravljenja u njemu,

[Drogi]

Pa da kolega Dinko zato sam vAS i poslao tamo jer je tamo ugodno i ja nikako ne bih želio da se vi osječate loše ili ne daj bože neugodno.
Također apeliram da vAS se primi u ženski dio natjecanja. Tamo ćete moći pokazati svu raskoš igre s travom, sve rotacije ćete moći demonstrirati djevojkama, a i one vAS neće nabijati ko muški kolege pa ćete vjerojatno biti samo blago negativni, ne kao sada tvrdo negativan skor.

[Vracko]

Nije Drogi los, on samo ima preuzak pogled na stolni tenis i razlicite stilove igre.

Jos je on novi u tome, premalo trenira pa cemo mu oprostiti.
Bogu fala dostaje travasa pa ima priliku nauciti igrati na to (ja mu se nudim objasniti) no ocito je ili preljen ili nema zivaca igrati igru u kojoj treba misliti.