SOKAZ forum

[dario-zg-zapad]

bila je dobra tekma, protiv ady andre, mislim da je bod realan.
Ove godine cemo se borit za opstanak posto od prosle godine prakticki smo svi igrali sam utakmice i imamo sve manje vremena.

Ove sezone sam promjenil kompletni reket prije dva tjedna presel na travu da vidim kak i to izgleda a ovu sezonu smatram za ucenje.

Sretno svima dalje u natjecanju.

[Dinko Š.]

Znači, i ti sine Brute! I ti si na travi, a sada vidim da je i strašni Drčić na travi, pa i veliki protivnik trave Munja nešto petlja s travom.
Trava vlada!

[zacko]

[MUNJA2]

[Dinko Š.]

Cijenjeni Topspin me izvolio upozoriti:
"Dinko vidim da ima nekoliko igrača slobodnih, nivo prve i druge lige. Pa ako ih lijepo pitaš možda i pristanu igrati za tebe, kada nemaju ekipu."
Hvala na informaciji, ali ja ću ipak pričekati kada Guga bude na rapolaganju. Fali mi majica.

[Dinko Š.]

Naravno da smo izgubili od Barutane, pojačane s dva bivša prvoligaša, a koji me baš i nisu posebno impresionirali.
Jedina mi je, pak, utjeha bila to da sam se uspio revanširati njihovom simpatičnom kapetanu Hercegu, i to s elegantnih 3:1, jer me prije tri godine mlatnuo s 3:2.

[vjeverko]

A je i ga. Pa Darko je ostvario a ti si ostao isti.

[Dinko Š.]

Molim nekog visprenog, jer mi Vjeverko ne odgovara na upit, a tko se bavi enigmatikom, da mi objasni što je to Vjeverko mislio kad je precizirao: "Darko je ostvario, a ti si ostao isti".

[trnac]

Pretpostavljam da bi bilo mudro angažirati Gugu kao posrednika jer tko Vjeverka bolje razumije od Guge?

[Dinko Š.]

Imam dojam da je i Guga digao ruke od Vjeverka.

[ranzo48]

Pozdrav, evo i jednog citata (doduše starijeg, iz 2001) sa stranice Tactical Table Tennis pod naslovom “Da li je igranje s travom varanje” (nisam baš jak na prevođenju, bolje da je u originalu):

ARE LONG PIPS CHEATING
Long pips have always been controversial rubbers. This are some of the points made by players that complain on long pips, and my comments on each point:

1- They allow EASY control of spiny balls:
True, but note that EASY control is not BETTER control. Doing high quality shots is much more difficult than with inverted. Inverted players have a wide range of rubbers from where to choose, and they can select one among them that gives all the control they need too. Choosing a rubber that makes you control the ball is not cheating. It is a good idea.

2- They are hard to play against if you don't know HOW they work:
True, but this is YOUR fault only. Imagine how would you complain on inverted if it didn't exist, and you (a hardbat player, which never faced anything other than hardbat) faced a new player from another planet using heavy reglued Mark V rubbers with MAX sponge. If you were facing this player once per year, you would NEVER learn to play against inverted, since you need much more practice to get used to it. If you were AVOIDING this player all the time, the few (unavoidable) times you played against him, your performance would be even poor. That's what happen with long pips.

3- There's great variation on how long pips play, so LEARNING to play against them is not easy:
True. Long pips have a lot of parameters (such as pip's height, width, hardness, density ...) which can be adjusted to get specific (and very distinct) performances to suit different styles. Playing against JOOLA Badman (a hitting rubber) has NOTHING to do with playing against Double Happiness C7 (a chopping rubber). Also, some long pips are spiny while other are dead, some are deceptive while some are not, some can do spin reversal while some eat all spin, and all this types can be combined among them. But what gives more problems to players is that they return spin depending on the incoming ball's spin AND the stroke the long pips player plays. Note that inverted can somehow have great variation too, but when it comes close to some extreme behavior, they call it ANTISPIN.

4- Lots of players use long pips to COVER some weakness:
True. On the other side, lots of players serve & go for 3rd ball kill with ultra-fast equipment that they can't really control. In the first case, it's called CHEATING, and in the late case, it's called EVOLUTION OF THE GAME, but both groups choose equipment with the same purpose: to boost its performance. Both groups are likely to have problems to improve his game. Long pips suit very few players, same as very fast equipment. Those are not the wisest options, but neither can't be called cheating.

5- There are some truly DECEPTIVE rubbers:
True. There are some rubbers that have its parameters adjusted so tricky and extremely that can RANDOMIZE the spin they impart on the ball. This rubbers allow to push a no spin ball and get ANY spin (backspin, topspin, sidespin, even corkscrew). Every push comes different. It's a nightmare when they hit with this rubbers and you are at the other side. BUT this is not the purpose of this rubbers: a (highly) skilled played can play those deceptive long pips in a completely predictable manner. They choose this equipment since it has incredible capabilities (i. e.: instead of reversing spin, they can change spin's direction at his will). There are few legal and deceptive rubbers since the aspect ratio rule.

6- Long pips players take PROFIT of opponents' inability to play against long pips ON PURPOSE:
True. Lots of players use long pips as it's stated in (1), and take profit of (2), (3), (4) and (5) to boost their performance, specially at the lower levels, and SOME do this with the intention of take profit of opponent's weakness against long pips. This is cheating at the same level as doing a certain serve that you know your opponent is weak against (the common accepted 'way to go' by ALL the players). Some players complain that the difference is that serves have to be learned, and long pips just can be purchased. Well using long pips without leaving exposed his inherent weaknesses is very difficult to learn (and it is a must to play a SUCCESSFUL long pips game).

7- You have to THINK when facing long pips players:
Not true.You are not FORCED to think. You can play chess without thinking too. You can play your mindless looping style as usual and still win, but that will be unlikely if your opponent forces you to rally. Lots of players complain 'I don't like to think when I'm playing': That's fine, but they are playing with one important weapon less than a thinking player, and that could make the difference.

8- Inverted can be used to play successful chopping TOO:
True. But long pips are a MUCH better option since they provide better variation, much heavy backspin, and better handling and ball control to play defense. You can loop with 0.5 mm sponge too if you want (no, wait, that would be cheating because it's unusual).

9- Real ATHLETES don't play long pips / defense:
Not true. Some real athletes DO play long pips / defense. Look at the world ranking and you will see some (yes, there are few) real athletes playing long pips /defense.

10- Inverted is SUPERIOR to long pips:
True. That's just accurate. This has NOTHING to do with the fact that long pips are or are not cheating.

11- Returning the ball without taking CHANCES is very easy with long pips:
Not true. Returning the ball can be easy, but it is EXTREMELY difficult doing it in such a manner that your opponent can't attack (don't letting your opponent attack (or at least don't letting him to attack hard) is the ONLY way of play without taking chances). At top level, choppers play the riskiest possible game.

12- Long pips players do NOTHING but wait for opponent's error:
Not true. They have AT LEAST to return ALL the shots. Winning the point by opponent's error (whatever you think it means) is 100% legal, thus is no cheating.

13- Defensive styles at lower levels are much more EFFECTIVE:
True. At lower levels there are lots of unforced errors, so just keeping the ball in play, even poorly, and playing for safety will make you a tough opponent. This has nothing to do with cheating.

14- There are little or no chopper TOP players:
True. This is because they are at a HUGE disadvantage when facing loopers due to 40mm balls, glues, low aspect ratios, max sponges, carbon blades, etc... Still, there are a few players that choose this style and can be competitive. Imagine taking part in an F1 race with a 'street' sports car... and winning: You wouldn't be called cheater: you would be called HERO.

Boris

Copyright © 2001 The Tactical Table Tennis Website

[Dinko Š.]

100% točno rečeno! Munja, sve ti je tu lijepo objašnjeno. Znači, nisi u pravu kad prigovaraš na igranje s travom, ili nas pak tjeraš u zasebnu ligu. Sorry.

[MUNJA2]

To ti vrijedi za profesionalce, mi amateri koji smo u 60-tima tek uzeli reket u ruke razmišljamo drugačije. Trebalo mi je i još mi treba da se naviknem na putanju i odbijanje loptice sa normalnim giumama a onda se pojavite vi travari koji hoćete kruha bez motike, ničim zaslužni a dobijete poen. Ja treniram 5 x tjedno a ti sa ne treniranjem ili maksimalno 2 x tjedno sa travom dobijaš poene koje nisi zaslužio svojom vještinom nego sa karakteristikama trave, kada me već pitaš .....mi, amateri, starije generacije smo se došli zabavljati a onda se pojavite vi koji hoćete ono što vam ne pripada i ....POKVARITE zabavu !

[Dinko Š.]

Uzmi travu i dođi na zabavu!

[Saša]

Ne znaš ti Dinko što je zabava.
Ti se sjećaš samo plesnjaka
_________________
Let the force be with you

[Dinko Š.]

Saši je zabava lokanje pive u muškom društvu u zadimljenoj krčmi. .
Meni je, pak, ritmičko gibanje, grud na grud, s mirišljavom i gipkom ženskinjom.

[Saša]

Da još uvijek se sjećaš kako je to bilo 50tih i 60tih.
Svi i možemp pričati i nekim prošlim vremenima kojeg se sjećamo sa sjetom jer smo bili mladi , ali ne treba živjeti u prošlosti
_________________
Let the force be with you

[Dinko Š.]

The Day After:

[Dinko Š.]

Rutinski. Opet smo izgubili!
Jedina mi je utjeha bila to da sam se Kralju, s uvjerljivih 3:0, osvetio za prošlogodišnji poraz, te da sam s elegantnih 3:1 mlatnuo njihovog najboljeg igrača Vranješa, a koji je, in idgressio, od kada nastupa u SOKAZ-u, uvijek imao uvjerljivo pozitivan skor (osim sa mnom: 2:3).

[Dinko Š.]

Kao što je stručnjak za međuljudske odnose, te vrhunski spletkaroš, Krešo "Spin" Čivić, vispreno i pronicljivo uočio da "ekipe unutar Ady Endre kolektiva imaju veoma zategnute odnose", to je onda sasvim jasno da će, po njemu, naš meč u srijedu "svakako biti jedan od najzanimljivijih susreta u ligi, moguće čak i susret visokog rizika".
Upravo zbog toga će pred našom dvoranom dežurati interventna policija s dvije marice, vatrogasci i hitna pomoć.
Ja sam dobio zadatak donijeti dvije gajbe pive, da se imamo s čime mlatiti, Vihor Kušpilić će donijeti par butelja vina za hladne obloge, a žene su nam već počele praviti slane i slatke delicije s kojima ćemo se gađati.
Uglavnom, sada pozivam i funkcionere i administratore SOKAZa da nazoče tom "susretu visokog rizika", a kako bi na licu mjesta izricali sankcije.
Meč počinje već u 18 sati, a kako bi bilo vremena za konzumiranje svih ića i pića u toj općoj makljaži nakon "susreta". Tko preživi, pričat će.